[Vidhyarthee means Learner]

Hi,
This is my first post to this forum.

My point of opening this new topic is not proving astrology here.
but I am asking you to have an open mind, unbiased attitude for a while.

To keep unbiased attitude is difficult but possible. It is my request to read with an open mind. a neutral mind is a Scientist mind.

Kindly read with such an attitude and reply with such attitude. and I promise you that I will also read your post with similar attitude.
I believe it is a path of Scientific attitude.

-----------

This topic is not written with an attitude to prove Astrology. but to show you Astrology is a pure Math.

First let me define Astrology in a few words. - Everybody is born on particular planetary positions( Astronomical positions). with that position Astrologer can predict the personality( preferences or preferred choice or habits of that human being).
and when time passes that human being grow older. Astrologer try to find out WHEN it is not suitable time IN RESPECT TO THE POSITION WHEN that human being was born. this RELATION between any TWO POSITIONS ( Future position and the position when he/she was born) is Astrologer's business.

you can see here it is pure math. between Two ASTRONOMICAL POSITIONS.


Let me explain you more familiar or simpler terms.
you know we have seasons. Winter, Summer etc.
I live in INDIA, and If I am " UNCOMFORTABLE" ( it is my preference, not necessarily yours) with Winter or cold then it is more difficult for me to travel Europe in Winter because of extreme cold weather. but may be it is "EASIER" for me to travel in Africa in the similar months. So I have co-related between TWO POSITIONS and you can predict the outcome.



Similarly, If Astrologer Knows the personality of particular human being and list his different preferences and then with pure math Astrologer can "travel" in to the future and finds out favorable and unfavorable planetary positions IN RESPECT TO THE PREFERENCES of that particular Human being( or that planetary position when he/she was born)

Suppose someone has a preference of TYPE A behavior( it is a medical term)
in brief Type A behavior = A form of behavior exhibited by people who tend to be aggressive, competitive, tense, time-conscious, and generally hostile. Because of competitiveness and time-conscious sometimes impatient also. It is very easy to say if you or time or circumstances restrict these type of people then they may become upset,angry. Am I right ? So If Astrologer find out such behavior in his birth Planetary position then Astrologer will look to those future planatory positions when these forces combines or multiplies which increases restriction eventually leads to anger, forcefulness and other outcome of anger. Astrology or Astrologer's word is NOT FINAL. If He/She learnt the lesson from family upbringing or religious teachings or by experience to control anger or understand the situation then he/she can FEEL restriction but resolves the situation and AVOIDE THE NAGATIVE EFFECT OF THE SITUATION AND EARN THE BENIFIT. similarly if I live in India and I am "UNCOMFORTABLE" with cold and if I travel EUROPE in winter BUT If I wear proper Cloths which can protect me from cold I can live with it with some restriction and travel Europe in winter and earn the benefits.

above paragraph also means that Astrologer should and can only predict the circumstances, not EXACT events and with an appropriate attitude of that particular situation you can change DESTINY. most of the time with common sense you can do it without Astrology. with astrology you have math on your side.

I have tried best to explain you in above paragraphs in words ( without Math).


I think let me stop here and understand what your opinion of it and then I will explain appropriate math example.

Thanks for reading it.

----------------

[ejdalise]

Vidhyarthee means Learner, on 28 January 2010 - 02:20 PM, said:

Hi,
This is my first post to this forum.

My point of opening this new topic is not proving astrology here.
but I am asking you to have an open mind, unbiased attitude for a while.

You're in luck . . . many here have open minds.

Vidhyarthee means Learner, on 28 January 2010 - 02:20 PM, said:

To keep unbiased attitude is difficult but possible. It is my request to read with an open mind. a neutral mind is a Scientist mind.

Hmmm . . . I would say an inquiring mind is a scientist mind. I'm not sure how anyone can be neutral unless they are totally devoid of knowledge (facts).

Vidhyarthee means Learner, on 28 January 2010 - 02:20 PM, said:

Kindly read with such an attitude and reply with such attitude. and I promise you that I will also read your post with similar attitude.
I believe it is a path of Scientific attitude.

Sounds almost spiritual.

-----------

Vidhyarthee means Learner, on 28 January 2010 - 02:20 PM, said:

This topic is not written with an attitude to prove Astrology. but to show you Astrology is a pure Math.

I do agree it is pure something, but I'm not sure it's math. I mean, it uses math, but asstrology is not math.

Vidhyarthee means Learner, on 28 January 2010 - 02:20 PM, said:

First let me define Astrology in a few words. - Everybody is born on particular planetary positions( Astronomical positions). with that position Astrologer can predict the personality( preferences or preferred choice or habits of that human being).

See what I mean? That is not the definition of math, so right then and there I would say asstrology is not pure math.

Also, you just presented a premise without any kind of backing. For instance, everyone is born on a particular time during the mating cycles of Wallabies. Does that mean veterinarians can predict peoples personalities based on future Wallabies mating cycles? You laugh, but I just presented as much evidence my statement as you did for yours.

Vidhyarthee means Learner, on 28 January 2010 - 02:20 PM, said:

and when time passes that human being grow older. Astrologer try to find out WHEN it is not suitable time IN RESPECT TO THE POSITION WHEN that human being was born. this RELATION between any TWO POSITIONS ( Future position and the position when he/she was born) is Astrologer's business.

Say you. Me, I'm still thinking Wallabies. Plus I'm thinking asstrologer's business has something to do with sheep . . . wait, I'm getting a vision . . . yes, yes . . . I see fleecing.

Vidhyarthee means Learner, on 28 January 2010 - 02:20 PM, said:

you can see here it is pure math. between Two ASTRONOMICAL POSITIONS.

No, you really can't. You can say it does, but you saying it does not make it so.

Vidhyarthee means Learner, on 28 January 2010 - 02:20 PM, said:

Let me explain you more familiar or simpler terms.
you know we have seasons. Winter, Summer etc.

Yes, yes, please do . . . because we are mostly idiots here, and need things spelled out. Wait . . . we have seasons here?!?

Vidhyarthee means Learner, on 28 January 2010 - 02:20 PM, said:

I live in INDIA, and If I am " UNCOMFORTABLE" ( it is my preference, not necessarily yours) with Winter or cold then it is more difficult for me to travel Europe in Winter because of extreme cold weather. but may be it is "EASIER" for me to travel in Africa in the similar months. So I have co-related between TWO POSITIONS and you can predict the outcome.

Why not dress for wherever you are going? In other words, don't correlate positions; correlate clothes.

Vidhyarthee means Learner, on 28 January 2010 - 02:20 PM, said:

Similarly, If Astrologer Knows the personality of particular human being and list his different preferences and then with pure math Astrologer can "travel" in to the future and finds out favorable and unfavorable planetary positions IN RESPECT TO THE PREFERENCES of that particular Human being( or that planetary position when he/she was born)

Let me say this as gently as I can . . . no . . . they . . . can't. This is not a matter of keeping an open mind. And if you yourself had an open mind, you might have done some research on the arguments against asstrology. This is one site (http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/misc/astrology.html) but there are many, many others.


Look, I'm going to assume you are a nice guy and that you are sincere. Asstrology may work for you, or you may think it works for you; either way most of us here won't really care. If you want to live your life getting the occasional guidance from asstrologers, and if you are happy with that, more power to you.

But if you want to bring asstrology here as a viable math-based science, you must first provide a basis for why we should accept the initial premise. That is, you have not explained how or why planets influence the path our lives take. Saying they do is not the same as proving they do, which is what science concerns itself with. Once we get passed that, we could begin to examine why, if constellations do affect us, asstrology does not use all of them. And lastly, we could discuss the idea that asstrology may involve math, but math does not in itself legitimize this persistent crap. And rest assured, crap it is. But, don't take my word for it; consult your asstrologer.

[Dr. Mabuse]

Ejd, you have on several occations written "asstronomy" when I'm sure you meant to type "asstrology".
Astronomy is indeed a science with much basis in math.

[Dr. Mabuse]

Vidhyarthee means Learner, on 28 January 2010 - 10:20 PM, said:

Hi,
This is my first post to this forum.

Hello and welcome to Skepticality.

Quote

My point of opening this new topic is not proving astrology here.

We tend to be skeptics, but skeptics usually defer to the scientific process for evaluating statements of facts. I say this because I need you to understand that science isn't about "proving". It's about providing the best explanation possible for a given phenomenon, without claiming to hold the Truth™.
Now, you didn't say you were going to prove astrology here, but the very notion of "proving astrology" shows that you've missed the point of science.

Quote

but I am asking you to have an open mind, unbiased attitude for a while.

As opposed to what? What bias do you suppose we have?

Quote

To keep unbiased attitude is difficult but possible.

No need for you to get condescending. It provokes hostile attitude. We are intelligent people here. At least most of us.

Quote

This topic is not written with an attitude to prove Astrology. but to show you Astrology is a pure Math.

First let me define Astrology in a few words. - Everybody is born on particular planetary positions( Astronomical positions). with that position Astrologer can predict the personality( preferences or preferred choice or habits of that human being).
and when time passes that human being grow older. Astrologer try to find out WHEN it is not suitable time IN RESPECT TO THE POSITION WHEN that human being was born. this RELATION between any TWO POSITIONS ( Future position and the position when he/she was born) is Astrologer's business.

Let's apply simple syllogism here:

Premise 1) When people are born, planetary positions determine personality.
Premise 2) Planetary positions are predictable.
Conclusion) We can predict personality.

Since premise 1 has no support, the conclusion is unsupportable. There is no evidence what-so-ever that planets can affect personality.

But if we temporarily grant premise 1 then, yes: Astrology will partially have mathematical basis.
But you also forget that different personality traits interact with each other. Such interactions will cause unpredictable results.

Quote

I think let me stop here and understand what your opinion of it and then I will explain appropriate math example.

Since the basic premise of astrology is unsupported, I think your post contain nothing of scientific interest, and the math aspect of astrology is rendered irrelevant and useless.

Quote

Thanks for reading it.

You're welcome.

[Vidhyarthee means Learner]

( Second Post)

Hello ejdalise,

First of all I am thankful to you that you have read my post and wrote in detail.
and I believe that you are an intelligent human being.

The text you have written shows me biased mind, that you believe Astronomy is science but Astrology is not a science.
Few centuries back wise and learned people believed that Earth is a centre of Universe and Sun is circle around the Earth, because it is what they see every day.
But by careful analysis and Scientific mind we have found the right formula to predict the path of our planets.

------------

I have not posted any math in my previous post ( first post).
I have just explained what I have found after years of hard work in Astronomy, Mathematics and Astrology.

I think I must agree on your way of finding the truth then only we will be able to resolve this issue faster.

So what do you suggest ?

I say Astrology is a pure Math. and It is based on Astronomy.
Seasons on Earth is a pure math. You can "Predict" the Summer, Winter etc. based on position of SUN in respect to Earth ( pure Math- based on Astronomy)
and We change the attitude and we survive in that season very well.
The position of sun determines the intensity of heat because Sun is a sorce of light and light and heat are related.

The way we find season is not Math ?


-------------------


One more question Is in my mind.

DO you waht to know How astrology is working ?
or
Do you want to know Astrology is right or false?

or both ?


-------------

I again thankful to you for reading my post.

and I laughed a lot at your spelling Mis-take of ASSStrology.
really innovative. I like it.


-Manish





I am learning so please forgive me for my mistakes.

[ejdalise]

Dr. Mabuse, on 29 January 2010 - 06:42 AM, said:

Ejd, you have on several occations written "asstronomy" when I'm sure you meant to type "asstrology".
Astronomy is indeed a science with much basis in math.

Damn!! . . . you are correct (and I will fix). Ithe the result of doing something when very tired, and preoccupied with various burdens the world heaps on one's shoulders.

ejd

[ejdalise]

Vidhyarthee means Learner, on 29 January 2010 - 07:25 AM, said:

( Second Post)

Hello ejdalise,

First of all I am thankful to you that you have read my post and wrote in detail.
and I believe that you are an intelligent human being.

The text you have written shows me biased mind, that you believe Astronomy is science but Astrology is not a science.
Few centuries back wise and learned people believed that Earth is a centre of Universe and Sun is circle around the Earth, because it is what they see every day.
But by careful analysis and Scientific mind we have found the right formula to predict the path of our planets.

Congratulations; you join a very select group of people who acknowledge me as an intelligent human being. Most others question even whether I am a human being, let alone intelligent.

But I digress. What I want to say is that once again you border on insults, but I will once again choose to ignore it, and attribute it to cultural differences.

You see, you assume bias because I do not agree with you. But you have no idea how much I know about astrology. You have no idea how much I looked into it before I dismissed as pure rubbish. As a semi-ancient being I have had a significant amount of time to explore things and subjects which may be of help to me during my brief journey as a sentient being. I not only found astrology lacking, but also counter to what I believe is the fundamental strength we humans (yes, I am human) have as a species.

That is, our ability to shape our own destiny. Your premise goes counter everything I believe and everything I have experienced in life, and as such it is not for me.

As I previously said, it may work for you, but that is between you and your math.

And, I understand the desire to bring what you believe to be a useful tool for living life to others; I would put forth that reason is the better tool, and using reason one should quickly come to the obvious conclusion astrology is little more than wishful thinking.

So I beg you to not assume you can provide any argument I have not already encountered many times. I also beg you to read dissenting opinions about astrology, as that might then put you in an even footing with most of us here who have done research on the art of astrology. If you then still want to debate the issue, you might begin by refuting some of the arguments against any perceived validity in this ancient, but useless, art.

[Vidhyarthee means Learner]

Quote

You see, you assume bias because I do not agree with you. But you have no idea how much I know about astrology. You have no idea how much I looked into it before I dismissed as pure rubbish

Hello ejdalise,

I am glad you have spent time in Astrology.
If you have Studied Astrology then My task on Math side of Astrology is even easier for me.

Now Let me ask you.

1. Do you know How to find Planetary Degrees( Longitude), in short the Horoscope( position of the planet around Birth ?
2. Do you know How to find Current or desired Date Planatary positions ?

No. 1. is Astronomical Position at Birth and No. 2 is Transit Astronomical Positions.
If you know How to find out these Two then it will be easier for us to communicate because we can communicate in same language of Math like currently we communicate in English.




Respected ejdalise,

I do not wish to break your belief, nor I wish to force my belief on others.
Humbly I wish to put co-relation of Math part of Astrology and our life. as I have discribed in Season example and Sun position.
If you know above Two points( How to find longitudes) then I will be glad to communicate with you in a math language.

Please correct me when you feel.
I believe I will sure learn from you.

as you can see I do not wish to argue with you, because I know the truth with the help of MATH, I wish to communicate with you and the group members and I will do my best to display the truth and try to explain in the language you understand. Because of it is Math It is not my wishful thinking. in this process if we have an OPEN MIND we both will learn.


-Manish

[sailingsoul]

Welcome VML. I don't see how discussing more than one belief or premise at one time can succeed with a constructive outcome. As raised by Dr M. , how do you support Premise 1? that being
" When people are born, planetary positions determine personality".
What math or observations do you have to present that will support your premise?
I ask this because I don't know of any and you, I believe, claim there is. This I believe is the first point to cover before going any further . SS

[Vidhyarthee means Learner]

sailingsoul said

Quote

" When people are born, planetary positions determine personality".
What math or observations do you have to present that will support your premise?
I ask this because I don't know of any and you, I believe, claim there is. This I believe is the first point to cover before going any further . SS

Hello sailingsoul,

You have pointed out the root question.
Can we determine the personality of a human being by Planetary position ?
My answer is YES.

It is not my belief. but it is based on MATH. My work is not over yet on personality but it is near 60%-70% complete.
But I will be happy to answer your question, and If you want any proof I will be happy to give you.

I need Birth Date- Birth Time ( approximate time : plus or minus 1 Hr will do) and the Birth Place or time Zone will do.
I will try my best to describe some of the preferences in his/her personality.
(exclude any extreme medical cases here like mentally challenged people or any mental dieses etc.)

I am not very good at explaining my thoughts in words in English languages but I will try my best.

Personality has many sides. To define a person is a great and difficult job. but I can highlight some of the extreme preferences if I can find.
or If I can not find such preference I will ask next data.

and all this I am doing based on math not with "Intution" as other Astrologers are doing.

-Manish

[ejdalise]

Personally I would prefer if instead of being respectful you addressed what we are actually asking.


Rather with me providing you with some birthday time and geographical position, I would prefer if instead you would clarify the initial premise.


That is, why assume a limited number of celestial bodies have any sort of influence on the personality of a given human being. Better yet, describe the mechanism by which they (the limited number of celestial bodies) affect/predict/influence human affairs, and while you are at it explain why the remaining gazillion celestial objects have no effect.


Math is not a reason; math is a tool, and as such math itself cannot explain the how and why of it.


But let me be upfront about something. Being a Leo, my patience is being taxed near its limit. Celestial influences have gifted me with the curse of being nearly infallible. That means I am seldom wrong, and consequently I don't suffer dissenters all that well.


That mean that while I appreciate your polite and non-confrontational approach to the discussion, in very short order I will cease to respond to your posts unless they focus on the fundamental questions raised by me and others.


I'm not being impolite . . . it's written in the stars, and I won't be able to help myself.

[Vidhyarthee means Learner]

My third Post...


ejdalise said

Quote

Personally I would prefer if instead of being respectful you addressed what we are actually asking.

Rather with me providing you with some birthday time and geographical position, I would prefer if instead you would clarify the initial premise.

That is, why assume a limited number of celestial bodies have any sort of influence on the personality of a given human being. Better yet, describe the mechanism by which they (the limited number of celestial bodies) affect/predict/influence human affairs, and while you are at it explain why the remaining gazillion celestial objects have no effect.

Math is not a reason; math is a tool, and as such math itself cannot explain the how and why of it.

Hello ejdalise,
I did not said that all celestial bodied affect human being, you assumed it. and I am not saying that only some bodies have an effect. It is not my job. It is scientist job to find out.
What I am saying is Planets do effect Human being 'someway' and with math I will try to put it here.
With Math as a tool I am saying that Planet do effect Human being. Because It is Math so it is precise.

HOW and WHY planet effect Human Being is NOT my premise right now.


for example ....When Newton invented properties of light, he did not invent Speed of light - How fst light travels and that did not proved Newton math wrong. My example may be incomplete but you may have got my point.

Now shall we focus...
as you have asked about the premises I need to give.I have tried here.
I request you to forgive me for my mistakes, because I am new with this kind of discussion.
If anything is wrong or inappropriate or you do not understand please teach me or explain me what you want I will sure learn and explain you.
once again I am thankful for you patience.

===> Three premises <=====

[premise begin]
1. One can interpret the preferences (behavior preferences) of Human being from Planets positions at the time of birth.
[premise completed]


for example,
one prefers to be alone more than one prefers to be in crowd or a group. we may call it introvert. we have a list of qualities associated with it.
I have given example of TYPE A behavior in my first Post. It is a Medical Term. Such behavior preferences can be predicted from the birth position of the planets.
Somebody said right " We are what we repeatedly Do".

premise #1 is a preferences in our entire lifetime but We are Human Beings. as we grow older with acquired common sense to profit maximum from the situation, thus we prefer our inherent nature but with free will at that time we CHOOSE NOT TO REACT on it. That CHANGES DESTINY. So I am telling you here Astrologer can not predict events, they can only predict the circumstances(seasons) of life of Human beings.
So increased self awareness helps us to profit more in given situation. My fellow brother I beg you to understand this.
btw.., I am not a spiritual or religious freak. but a pure math person. by profession I am a software developer since last 20 plus years.

[premise begin]
2. Planets Travel, changes positions in the sky, transiting planet(s) do effect on on every Human being. Transit adds a Timing factor here. transiting planetary effect has a time limit.
[premise end]

for example, Mars travel faster than Saturn, So mars effect is measured in less days than Saturn. Planets do retrograde and stationary. So effect may vary at the time of stationary and retrograde period of that particular planet.
we can take slower planets like Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus to measure the effect clearly at this point.


[premise begin]
3. Intensity of Transiting Planet(s) on that particular Human Being is also depends upon the inherent nature ( preferences he make)
[premise end]

for example,
If from premise #1, we have identified Type A behavior.
( Type A behavior = A form of behavior exhibited by people who tend to be aggressive, competitive, tense, time-conscious, and generally hostile. Because of competitiveness and time-conscious sometimes impatient also.)
So if transiting planet(s) effect increases aggressiveness or haste then it will create anger in that person in that TIME FRAME of The TRANSIT. and this is the limit of Astrology. If a person reacts on that and takes action and any event happens is not the Astrologer's premise. Astrologer Should not predict the Event. He should predict the circumstances.

Here I have clarified premises. and If I am wrong or incomplete kindly correct me and guide me what and How should I present in your manner.

Now what do you propose ?
How should I proceed ?
To back my premises I am ready to present the Math part.
Once again I am not GOD, I am human being, So I believe I am incomplete. When I am presenting Math I do not compromise Accuracy.

I am polite and non- confrontational because I depends on Math not my belief and so I am patient also.
Just trying to understand your ways and I will learn and change myself so we can speak same language.

Please forgive me for my mistakes

-Manish

[ejdalise]

Vidhyarthee means Learner, on 29 January 2010 - 11:12 PM, said:

My third Post...

Hello ejdalise,
I did not said that all celestial bodied affect human being, you assumed it. and I am not saying that only some bodies have an effect. It is not my job. It is scientist job to find out.

Well, Learner, I did not say it either. I asked why they don't.

But I fear at this point I must take myself out of this discussion as I am bordering on achieving a level of contempt which might lead me to being disrespectful.

Let's do this . . . if you believe it is not your job to prove the underlying premise, that it is in fact the job of scientists, let's then go off and read what scientists have to say about it.

Oh, wait . . . I've already done that, and they say astrology is basically crap adorned with nonsense. Coincidentally, they appear to mirror my own research on the matter.

And you see, if I cannot accept the basic premise, and no rational person can, whatever comes after that is not worth even the smallest portion of the time I have left on this Earth.

So, as you show no inclination to review what the scientists have to say about astrology, we are at an impasse. You deluding yourself that you have the means to mathematically determine things about another individual, and me thinking that you are very closed minded. Likely you persist because it gives you a measure of self-importance, but the problem with self-importance is that it is usually not recognized by others. And this is no different.

Bye.

[Vidhyarthee means Learner]

Quote

Well, Learner, I did not say it either. I asked why they don't.

But I fear at this point I must take myself out of this discussion as I am bordering on achieving a level of contempt which might lead me to being disrespectful.

Let's do this . . . if you believe it is not your job to prove the underlying premise, that it is in fact the job of scientists, let's then go off and read what scientists have to say about it.

Oh, wait . . . I've already done that, and they say astrology is basically crap adorned with nonsense. Coincidentally, they appear to mirror my own research on the matter.

And you see, if I cannot accept the basic premise, and no rational person can, whatever comes after that is not worth even the smallest portion of the time I have left on this Earth.

So, as you show no inclination to review what the scientists have to say about astrology, we are at an impasse. You deluding yourself that you have the means to mathematically determine things about another individual, and me thinking that you are very closed minded. Likely you persist because it gives you a measure of self-importance, but the problem with self-importance is that it is usually not recognized by others. And this is no different.

Bye.

Respected ejdalise,

If you want to leave the discussion, I don't mind. It is O.K. with me.
The first rule of Science is you have to listen if somebody put facts in front of you.
Do not judge, see the facts and ask question in the line of facts presented.

If scientist says something it ia AN OPINION. and opinion has no meaning in scientific world.
Opinion is always without the backing of facts.

We have lots of example in history of science, that scientist says something and it went wrong.
If you want proof or list of such events I do have a good library, I can give it to you.
and I believe in science and scientific attitude. I respect those who has such attitude.
I also respect those who do not have such an attitude. It is O.K. with me.


That's why I asked specifically about OPEN MINDIND PEOPLE.

I wish good luck to you.

bye.
---------------------


Hello Other members,

If you have read what I have written in my First and other posts I clearly says Astrology is a Math.

Those who are OPEN MINDED and when I present a fact or MATH part of Astrology to them at that time If I am inaccurate they can ask me, correct me if I am wrong show me the path in which they understand it, I will be glad.

An Unbiased or neutral Attitude is required here.

I have Math and I can show it to you. I do not want to prove because it is Mathematically right.

I will close this post by a saying.... If you close your eyes...It is bound to be dark...



-Manish

[ejdalise]

Vidhyarthee means Learner, on 30 January 2010 - 08:56 PM, said:

If you close your eyes...It is bound to be dark...

If you close your mind, you're bound to believe in astrology.

ejd

[Vidhyarthee means Learner]

Hello,
It is you have closed this issue, nor I.

I am ready to present the facts.

You have asked to write PREMISE, I have written.

If you have an OPEN MIND, Instead of You closing an issue, you would have asked about the proof in Math which you have never ASK.

from the first post you have decided that Asstrology is bogus. non-math, non-scientific. while I was and I am ready to present facts in math.
are you ready ? then please guide me the way, all you have to do is ASK.

We shall go in the journey in POSITIVE, OPEN, SCIENTIFIC mind which SURE need correction in our BOTH belief.

I do not say I am 100% right and I 'know' you are also not 100% right.


I repsect your STRONG belief in " ASStrology".

My belief in Astrology is telling me to present the Math.


anyway, best of luck to you.

-Manish.

Have a nice day. and I thankful to you for sharing your time with me.

[ejdalise]

Vidhyarthee means Learner, on 30 January 2010 - 10:57 PM, said:

I do not say I am 100% right and I 'know' you are also not 100% right.

You are half right.

But you are correct in one other respect. I did say I was going to quit.

The reason I linger is because it is hard for me to write off misguided individuals, and despite ample evidence to the contrary, I have a tendency to believe reason always wins out over delusion.

Having once again been proven wrong, I will abide by what I said, and not bother you any more. Perhaps you could reciprocate? . . . no, I suppose not.

ejd

[Vidhyarthee means Learner]

Hello ejdalise,


What I have said is scientific. but you are choose not to look on that.
instead you stick to your belief. you are very sure of yourself.

Now, It is my turn.
If you believe Astrology is wrong. you can prove it here.

I know you do not have knowledge or scientific method to prove Asrology wrong.

I do not blame you. You and I both have a right to believe something.

Just it was my aspectation was a bit more on scientific side.


One thing is clear to me, that you just want to talk except the scientific way.

Anyway, Thanks again.

-Manish.


One thing I will share with you in a pure and positive terms ,.... an old prayer. I like it very much.

-----------------
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change;

the courage to change the things I can;

and the wisdom to know the difference.

--------------


God bless you and your loved ones.

[Dr. Mabuse]

Vidhyarthee means Learner, on 29 January 2010 - 03:25 PM, said:

( Second Post)

The text you have written shows me biased mind, that you believe Astronomy is science but Astrology is not a science.

...and for good reasons. It's factual: Astronomy is science, and Astrology is nonsense.

Astronomical knowledge has been gathered with the scientific process for hundreds of years. Astrology has yet to pass any scientific test.

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Few centuries back wise and learned people believed that Earth is a centre of Universe and Sun is circle around the Earth, because it is what they see every day.

They weren't so wise and learned then, were they?

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But by careful analysis and Scientific mind we have found the right formula to predict the path of our planets.

That's basic Astronomy for you. There's nothing magical about it.

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I say Astrology is a pure Math. and It is based on Astronomy.

Astronomy is based on two foundations: Astronomy and fantasy.
Planetary positions at any given point in time is pure Astronomy (and math is part of that)
This I have no problem with. I am sure you have a computer program that can very exactly calculate planetary positions at any given point in time, and compare then to any other point in time.

But Astrology also make the assumption that planetary bodies (some but not all) mysteriously affect pesonality. There is no scientific evidence to support this. That's why I can only provisionally grant you this premise for the sake of this discussion.

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Seasons on Earth is a pure math.

Math and physics. If the Sun's radiation hadn't been what it is, then there wouldn't be summers or winters on Earth. It's actually the laws of physics that determines the planetary orbits.

Have you tried calculating the orbit of Mercury, and compared your results to actual observations? Let's say within a 50-100 year period? I'll bet your calculations will be off, unless you've included physics in your calculations.

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as you can see I do not wish to argue with you, because I know the truth with the help of MATH, I wish to communicate with you and the group members and I will do my best to display the truth and try to explain in the language you understand. Because of it is Math It is not my wishful thinking. in this process if we have an OPEN MIND we both will learn.

There must be a language barrier here keeping us from understanding each other.
I agree that calculating planetary positions is an exercise in math.
That's the Astronomy-part of Astrology. There, we don't have a difference of opinion, so stop harping about keeping an OPEN MIND about it. It's insulting.


Next post:

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I did not said that all celestial bodied affect human being, you assumed it.

No he didnn't assume that. He asked about it because he can see an inconsistency in what affects personality and what does not. It's a question that many astrologers have failed to explain, so you shouldn't feel guilty about being unable to do so.

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What I am saying is Planets do effect Human being 'someway' and with math I will try to put it here.

Math cannot prove that humans are affected by the planets. Math is a tool which can be used to describe aspects of the physical world. Math by itself does not prove anything, unless you can correlate your equations to actual and measurable effects.

Let me give you and example:
Math describes the acceleration of an apple as it falls from a tree. But it is gravity that makes it fall. Math can be used to predict the speed and trajectory of another apple, should it fall. But the mathematical equations themselves are in no way proof of gravity.

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HOW and WHY planet effect Human Being is NOT my premise right now.

Then we are not disagreeing, other than the definition of Astronomy and Astrology, and where the line between them is.

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When Newton invented properties of light, he did not invent Speed of light - How fst light travels and that did not proved Newton math wrong. My example may be incomplete but you may have got my point.

Newton didn't invent the proprties of light, he discovered it. There's an important difference. But it turned out that Newton was only partly right about the light. His knowledge was incomplete.

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===> Three premises <=====

[premise begin]
1. One can interpret the preferences (behavior preferences) of Human being from Planets positions at the time of birth.
[premise completed]

This is a premise unsupported by the current bulk of scientific knowledge. Without support, the entire point of Astrology is moot, but an exercise in pointless play with planetary models. Well, not enitrely pointless. It can still be done for amusement.

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[premise begin]
2. Planets Travel, changes positions in the sky, transiting planet(s) do effect on on every Human being. Transit adds a Timing factor here. transiting planetary effect has a time limit.
[premise end]

This premise is also unsupported by scientific facts, as there has never been a case of detected causation between psychological profiles and planetary positions.
However, if such an effect was plausible then yes, transits would definitely have timing as a critical factor. But this isn't in any way revolutionary. Astronomers has been predicting transitions for ages.

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[premise begin]
3. Intensity of Transiting Planet(s) on that particular Human Being is also depends upon the inherent nature ( preferences he make)
[premise end]

Again, this premise of yours is a conclusion of a subset of premises, of which "planetary positions affect the human personality" is one important premise that is unsupported. Hence your third premise is unsupported.

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When I am presenting Math I do not compromise Accuracy.

I have no reason to doubt that. However, if the math is based on a faulty premise, it won't matter how accurately you do the calculations. The result will still be wrong.
If the acceleration constant of the apple from my previous example above is off, it will not matter how many decimals I use when I calculate the speed of the apple. The result will still come out wrong.

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I am polite and non- confrontational because I depends on Math not my belief and so I am patient also.

As long as you're only calculating planetary positions, no belief is required. As long as the equations and algorithms are correct.
It's when you suggest that the planetary positions you have calculated affect human behaviour that you leave science and step into the land of make-believe.

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If you want to leave the discussion, I don't mind. It is O.K. with me.
The first rule of Science is you have to listen if somebody put facts in front of you.
Do not judge, see the facts and ask question in the line of facts presented.

Now you start coming off as rude again, by implying that ejdalise haven't listened to facts.
However, you haven't presented much in the way of facts yet. You have presented opinions that I've aggreed upon, namely that calculations of planetary positions with good accuracy is a possible with maths and celestial mechanics as we know them today.

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We have lots of example in history of science, that scientist says something and it went wrong.
If you want proof or list of such events I do have a good library, I can give it to you.
and I believe in science and scientific attitude.

Such is the nature of doing science. We develop a theory that describes a natural phenomenon, experiments shows us that the theory wasn't correct, so we make up a theory that better describes the phenomenon than the previous theory.
Newton's theory of gravity was only partly correct, and Einstein came up with a theory that made Newton's theory better.

Also, given what you wrote above, you will have to acknowledge that you may by just such an example of "scientist says something and it went wrong".

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An Unbiased or neutral Attitude is required here.

I'm unbiased and neutral in the sense that I have no stake in your propositions being right or wrong.
On the contrary, if such exact Astrology was possible, I can see real world applications that will have huge benefit to society: such accuracy could predict when possible criminals and otherwise mentally unstable people are born, and prevent them from being inflicted by such conditions simply by inducing early or belated births. Or as none-invasive methods by discourage people from having sex at such time when a conception might result in a birth during unwanted astrological conditions.

However, I am biased toward the scientific method as the preferred way to assemble knowledge of the real world. I am biased toward logic and critical thinking as a means to evaluate the truth-value of a statement of fact.
That's because all of these have proven to be (without any competition, really) the best way to acquire such knowledge.
I will undoubtedly make mistakes along the way. When that happens, I'm open minded enough to receive suggestions where I went wrong, and how to amend.

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I will close this post by a saying.... If you close your eyes...It is bound to be dark...

If you close your eyes, the sun will still shine, the light-bulb will still glow, and the candle flame will still burn your hand.

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If you have an OPEN MIND, Instead of You closing an issue, you would have asked about the proof in Math which you have never ASK.

Please consider this, just for the sake of argument:
If planets don't affect human personality, then the entire point of having Astrology vanishes, doesn't it?

Then consider ejdalise's position: no evidense has shown that planets affect personality.

If we both used logic, we would both come to the conclusion that ejdalise doesn't care what math can do for astrology, since he consider its basic premise to be bunk. Regardless of who is right or wrong.

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One thing I will share with you in a pure and positive terms ,.... an old prayer. I like it very much.

Since most skeptics doubt the existence of God, and many are atheists, openly praying like your display is a sign of affirmation that you believe that fantasies have an impact on the real world. They are nonsensical at best.

And actually praying for us openly, such as in "God bless you and your loved ones." is something I actually consider quite offensive. Not only for the condescending nature.
What if I said to you "Satan bless you and your loved ones", or "Kali bless you and your loved ones". It may not mean much to me, but maybe to you? Any God is symbol for organised religion, the scourge of Earth and detriment of critical thinking.

Anyway, that's how I feel about prayer and religion.

[ejdalise]

Vidhyarthee means Learner, on 31 January 2010 - 01:45 AM, said:

.....

and the wisdom to know the difference.

Arrgghhh . . . I can't help myself. I said I would not answer, but then you go and bring god into it.

I don't know which of the 2,000+ gods human have invented you "listen" to, or for that matter how many of them you listen to, but I might point out one obvious fact . . .

. . . with regards to the above prayer, she/he/it is obviously failing you big time.

But, now I understand much better what I am dealing with, and so I can truly, finally, for sure, without any doubt, and with no regrets go on with my life.

ejd

P. S. To the rest of the forum. Sorry . . . once again I engaged someone who is best ignored.

What I should have done is posted this link . . .

http://www.youtube.c...player_embedded

. . . not that he (or she) would actually view it, but I could have then walked away with a clear conscience that I done my part.