[GrouchyOldDave]

Extremism in defense of apes is no vice.
-- Planet of the Apes

Great quote. Isn't that from "Beneath the Planet of the Apes"?

Hmm... I'm pretty sure it was from the original 1968 "Planet of the Apes." It's a paraphrase of Goldwater's famous "extremism in defense of liberty is no vice" (but you probably already knew that).

I googled it and it appears in the 2001 version of "Planet of the Apes", and I'm pretty sure I got it from the 1968 version because I've never seen the 2001 version.

[GrouchyOldDave]

The only time I have trouble with dreams is during the onset of flu. I almost always have one miserable night, when the fever is just coming on, where I dream the same thing over and over again. I don't mean the same dream, or even sequence of events, over and over again. I mean the same thing over and over again. It could be something simple like turning on a light switch. But imagine dreaming that, just that, over and over again, hundreds of times, all night long. Switch on. Switch on. Switch on. Switch on. Switch on. Switch on...AHHHHHHH!

It's the Chinese Water Torture of Dreams.

Ok, my non-dreaming condition is much better than that, even if it is only on that odd onset of flu condition. I do occasionally have fever dreams, and when I wake I know I was dreaming, but I have no idea what it was about.

[dglas]

If you want to beat me up for derailing the thread (or even for no reason in particular), I'll understand, but I have a question for you folks. Maybe I should put this in the form of a poll.

Since the time I completely dismissed supernaturalism and spiritualism (all those years ago) I have never had a nightmare that involved horror or supernatural elements. In fact, I have had very, very few nightmares at all (maybe two or three in 20 years).

Is this unusual or is this similar to anyone else's experience? Or maybe I am misattributing this to dismissing supernaturalism/spiritualism when I should be attributing it to something else. Can't be growing up though; never did that. :wink:

[john mount]

charlie i call those 'loop' dreams. I get them every now and then, fairly often. Whatever is happening in the dream just plays over and over again like a loop. It's horrible. I also have had what's commonly referred to as lucid dreams, where I could fly and control it - when I was a teenager and in my twenties I flew just about every night. But now if I do have one it only lasts a second. For some reason, as soon as I become lucid, the dream ends and I wake up.

dglas, I dismissed supernaturalism and spiritualism also, but I still get a lot of nightmares. They never have actual horror or supernatural elements, but my nightmares never did before, either, except in the case of the sleep paralysis experiences. These tend to be dreams in which I commit some colossol error of judgment or do something bad, stupid, and irretrievable. Perfectly rational, but horrible anyway, and I'm so glad to wake up!

[chefcrsh]

Since before I knew how to drive (maybe as far back as age 8 or 10) I have had an occasionally recurring theme nightmare where I am driving in familiar territory (that is to say, it?s always places I know well), but have a horrible and disturbing feeling of being totally lost. As far as I know I do not actually go and drive while I am asleep.

[strummer]

The only time I have trouble with dreams is during the onset of flu. I almost always have one miserable night, when the fever is just coming on, where I dream the same thing over and over again. I don't mean the same dream, or even sequence of events, over and over again. I mean the same thing over and over again. It could be something simple like turning on a light switch. But imagine dreaming that, just that, over and over again, hundreds of times, all night long. Switch on. Switch on. Switch on. Switch on. Switch on. Switch on...AHHHHHHH!

It's the Chinese Water Torture of Dreams.

So that's why the bulb keeps blowing in my dream. Pack it in Charlie!

[CharlieMount]

Ha. Sorry about that. I'm probably opening a closing a bunch of garage doors in the neighborhood too.

"Loop Dreams". Good name for it.

Since detoxifying (is that a word?) myself of the supernatural I find that I have little fear of the dark, bumps in the night, bad omens or thoughts, and I definitely do not have supernatural REM visitations or mystically oriented bad dreams. I did have a recurring dream about spaceships in my teens, but it was more delightful than scary, but certainly mystical. I think when you lose the supernatural you also lose a little bit of life's transcendancy, whether while asleep or during those quiet moments of reflection and inspiration. And that's too bad. I try to find trancendancy elsewhere -- in my children, staring at the sea, or when I'm deep into a script and my mind is firing on all pistons. But while asleep I do feel that I am much less likely to experience outre moments, and when they do crop up, I am much more likely to become aware that I'm asleep, and dismiss them as dreams.

Although, the other night I did have a powerful dream about George Carlin in a plane accident, and I have to admit that after waking up I turned on the news. Just in case.

[GrouchyOldDave]

Although, the other night I did have a powerful dream about George Carlin in a plane accident, and I have to admit that after waking up I turned on the news. Just in case.

Maybe we should call Sylvia Browne and ask her where his plane will crash, just in case.

If he IS in a plane accident, we'll know it was your fault! :wink:

[rosie]

Rosie, have you actually woken up while standing or walking around? I can't imagine what that must be like. When you become aware of moving, in the dream, is it a different feeling from a standard dream? I've often woken myself up after realizing I'm actually moving, or at least struggilng to move, but I've never found myself out of the bed. I usually just slowly become awake, and I become conscious of the sleep paralysis wearing off.

I had a few experiences many years ago that I really can't explain, where I seemed to be conscious but not in a normal way, I was walking around the completley normal, mundane house that I lived in, but the circumstances were a little odd, like all the lights were on but it was night and no one else was home, and I have no memory of an end to the experience. It was associated with the most terrifying nightmare I've ever had, but I'm still not quite sure how. I mean, I don't have any memory of a linear progression from one to the other. I've wondered if this was a sleepwalking episode, but I've never really hard a good description of what it 'feels' like to sleepwalk. How do you know that's what's happening unless you wake up, with a totally clear head, while you're standing up somewhere?

mostly i wake up sitting in a room different to that in which i went to sleep and in those cases i wake up like i normally would in bed, and think "hmm, here i am on the sofa with the tv on white noise, i guess i must have sleepwalked here". a very few times i have woken up whilst walking - always the feeling of my hand on the door pushing it open.

it's not a frightening or "shock" thing - if i wake up "during" the moving about it's not deepsleepnoideaanythingsdifferent then suddenly oohwhyamiinthekitchen? there's a "brief" (while i'm aware of it) sensation in the dream of a funny sensation of real movement that wakes me not with a jolt, but like when you realise in your dream that you are dreaming.

if you've ever been woken by the phone ringing, not that the sound wakes you like an alarm clock might, but that in your dream you think "what's that funny ringing noise?" and that oddness wakes you up? it's a bit like that, but it's a physical sensation rather than a sound.

maybe the "brief" sensation is not related to the length of time i'm actually moving as i have witnesses to my walking about for at least 30 mins. i don't think i am dreaming of walking round the house - so i don't think i am acting out my dream. it is the sensation of the movement being "somehow wrong" for my dream that brings me round.

i am in my 30s, and often remember a dream. i "taught myself" lucid dreaming in my teens and maybe once or twice a fortnight, still "know i'm dreaming". this awareness rarely wakes me up (as far as i know). some dreams stay with me for days, some for years, but at least i remember the dream for a few minutes then it fades through the day til it's a complete blank. i hope i never lose the "ability" to remember my dreams

[john mount]

thanks for that answer, rosie. I definitely get the idea of waking up to a phone ringing, but only hearing the ringing while still asleep. That happens to me a lot. it's very interesting that what you're dreaming while sleepwalking doesn't have anything to do with the walking around. It's as if you're doing two things simultaneously - having your dream in the dream world, and walking around doing various things in the non-conscious sleepwalking world - and even though these things are happening at the same time, they're completley independent of each other. Talk about multi-tasking! Now if you could just somehow program yourself to get the dishes and laundry done while you're sleepwaking, think of all the extra free time you'd have during the day!

Seriously, though, it makes me think that my experience probably wasn't sleepwalking. I was experiencing the walking around, looking at things. I remember everything very clearly. There was never any fading, they way dream memories fade. I didn't wake up in a different place, or at all, really. It remains a mystery.

[rosie]

john mount wrote

Talk about multi-tasking! Now if you could just somehow program yourself to get the dishes and laundry done while you're sleepwaking, think of all the extra free time you'd have during the day!

my main witness used to say he thought the cats had invented some way of tapping in to my brainwaves in an attempt to get extra dinners or attention, or maybe rule the universe.
but then he also had to leave the room for laughing at their visible frustration when, there i am, wandering about the kitchen, ignoring all their attempts to get me to open the fridge, issue squeezes, open joint bank accounts, etc

[CharlieMount]

George Carlin seems to still be alive. More proof for our side...

[normalabnormal]

Now I know in old psych experiments they used to sever a certain portion in a cats brain and it stopped the physical inhibition in the animal when it dreamed. It would get up and move around just the same as if it were awake but EEG showed sleep patterns. Anybody know of any imaging studies on humans showing showing something like a lesion or damage. (Still trying to find the revelant animal studies). In kids sonambulism seems linked to immature nervous system while in adults more likely no organic cause except possibly a mild form of epilepsy, a seizure causing the episode. Or in the case of older adults onset of a neurodegenerative disorder, Parkinson's or Alzheimer's. So it does seem if something that should be working itsn't.

Kind of like my memory of college psych classes from 15 years ago. I always liked that prof, he said he wanted to go to Hell so he could run all those freaky experiments on people that he wasn't allowed.

[rosie]

Now I know in old psych experiments they used to sever a certain portion in a cats brain and it stopped the physical inhibition in the animal when it dreamed. It would get up and move around just the same as if it were awake but EEG showed sleep patterns. Anybody know of any imaging studies on humans showing showing something like a lesion or damage. (Still trying to find the revelant animal studies). In kids sonambulism seems linked to immature nervous system while in adults more likely no organic cause except possibly a mild form of epilepsy, a seizure causing the episode. Or in the case of older adults onset of a neurodegenerative disorder, Parkinson's or Alzheimer's. So it does seem if something that should be working itsn't.

Kind of like my memory of college psych classes from 15 years ago. I always liked that prof, he said he wanted to go to Hell so he could run all those freaky experiments on people that he wasn't allowed.

[strummer]

Charlie, is there anything online about the Ledru case? It sounds really interesting. I had a quick google session the other night but couldn't narrow it down to anything relevant.

[HiEv]

I've had very few lucid dreams. In one of the few I recall I remember that when I realized it was all a dream a sign popped up in front of me saying, "Rules for Dreaming" and had a numbered list of rules (I knocked the sign down without bothering to read them.) When the other people in the dream didn't believe me, I then attempted to demonstrate to them that it was a dream by levitating up to the ceiling.

That being said, I normally have very few "flying" dreams, though I have had a quite a few where it was more like the Douglas Adams "falling but missing the ground" trick. It was kind of like falling horizontally at a rate I could control.

As for nightmares, I can only remember having a few before I became a skeptic, and only one afterwards (though that one was more of a sci-fi/horror type dream.) I do occasionally have short startling dreams that jolt me awake; like I'm walking, I trip and fall, and I wake up just before my face hits the pavement. They're annoying. :x

One last, rather other odd thing I've noticed about my dreams is that they're usually more bizarre and visual if I'm sleeping on my back, and they tend to be more realistic and plot driven if I'm sleeping on my front. I much prefer the latter ones. Anyone else notice a difference in their dreams depending on how they sleep?

[normalabnormal]

HiEv I wonder if you're have a little sleep apnea when on your back and the "bad dreams" are your way of waking yourself up before because of the hypoxia? Out of curiosity do the dreams have any commonality to breathing or hypoxia? :?: Just a shot in the dark.

[CharlieMount]

I just watched the show again and I realized I'm wearing the shirt my mother-in-law bought me. That should earn me some brownie points.

There's not much about Ledru on the net. Most of the information I got was from an out of print book called "The Two Lives of Robert Ledru".

[carbonUnit]

I just watched the show again and I realized I'm wearing the shirt my mother-in-law bought me. That should earn me some brownie points.

There's not much about Ledru on the net. Most of the information I got was from an out of print book called "The Two Lives of Robert Ledru".

Oh #!#@$, missed it. Maybe I can catch the 11pm EDT performance...

[HiEv]

HiEv I wonder if you're have a little sleep apnea when on your back and the "bad dreams" are your way of waking yourself up before because of the hypoxia? Out of curiosity do the dreams have any commonality to breathing or hypoxia? :?: Just a shot in the dark.

It's possible. I know that while sleeping on my back I've snored loud enough to wake myself up a few times.

Also, I sometimes wake up with a headache, but only when I wake up lying on my back, so that would support your hypothesis.

Anyone know where I could get a cheap CPAP machine? :wink: